I'm A Stop Sign Enthusiast, And You Should Join Me

"PatBateman" (PatBateman) 09/03/2020 at 16:02 • Filed to: Traffic Laws, drivingtips, Not Driving Like A Douche, STOP READING MY TAGS

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Growing up in Austin during the first Dot-Com Boom (1990-bust), I saw many people from out of state move in and bring their regional driving habits with them. Floridians drive slow as all hell. Yankees would as soon slice me with a shank than let me merge into their lane in front of them. But Californians... They brought with them the “California Stop”; a rolling slowdown between 3 and 5 mph in the place of a full halt at a normal stop sign (or red light when turning right). This annoyed me in my formative years and created my insistence of full stops at these wonderful bright red octagons. And after reading this, you might just start the habit, too.

Now that I’m “an old”, I have a decent enough house that I’ve filled with children, a wife, and a Pomeranian, in a neighborhood just outside of Houston. It might be a different time and a different location, but the story here is quite similar; people from many different cultures, from both around the country and the world, have moved into my neighborhood and share their self-transportation habits with the rest of us. This is a problem.

Let’s back up a bit, shall we? In 1993, as a high school student, I became a volunteer firefighter with the local FD. And not an “assistant firefighter”, as my mother liked to tell herself; a full-fledged, competent firefighter. Structure fires, pin-in collisions (the “ jaws of life” were neat and all, but have you ever taken the roof off a car with a hydraulic o-cutter? SO MUCH FUN), and, most commonly, car accidents were my main fortes . And MAN, there were a lot of car accidents. Namely at intersections. Usually, because one (or both) of the vehicles involved ignored a red light or a stop sign and just kept rolling on. California stops, y’all. This is when I was 16 and 17 that I was seeing all of this.

How did these people pull out in front of huge ass vehicles without seeing the danger coming at them? A completely avoidable collision? Because they were so used to rolling those particular stop signs that it !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . When the police would ask them what happened , the stop sign runners wouldn’t even remember. Not because they got hit in the head, but because they were just rolling around doing the same mindless stop sign running that they always do, but this time with another car coming in. Witnesses would usually say the same thing at every accident: “This car was just driving down the road, and the other car didn’t even care to look or stop.”

Back to present day. My neighbors come from places all over the world, and many of those places have considerably more laxed traffic laws than we have here. Speed limits, right of ways , intersection stop signs, turning lane etiquette, passing in no passing areas, CORRECT SIDE OF THE ROAD TO DRIVE ON... All of these are ignored by many of this area’s inhabitants. The infraction that has gotten people killed (yes literally, no, I’m not being dramatic) in this subdivision, though, is the rolling/ running of stop signs.

For the better part of 30 years, I’ve forced myself into the habit of fully stopping when the law requires me to do so. And it’s a great habit, too! Every time a kid runs out into the street when my car’s wheels completely stop rolling right as the car’s front bumper comes to the crosswalk paint, I feel relieved. Every time I slow my vehicle down at a responsible rate, cease the car’s movement completely, and someone comes bombing down the cross road at an irresponsible speed that I would have pulled out in front of, I know that I just got out of being t-boned and stuck with the full tab for the repairs/hospital bills.

Every time someone else doesn’t stop completely at a stop sign, I try to watch their eyes to find out if they even glance to confirm that the coast is clear. Too many times, the drivers aren’t even paying attention. Maybe they’re staring blankly out the windshield on “autopilot” , or glancing down at their lap/phone, or just coasting through not looking at anything in particular; they aren’t looking for the little kid on the bike that is joyfully pedaling down their street or the car that’s now crossing the large intersection in front of them .

Honestly, are you? Think about it as truthfully as you possibly can.

My wife HATES my stops (she calls them “exaggerated”, I call them “complete”). If I were to get rear-ended at a stop sign, she’d say it was my fault because I fully stopped. But she is originally from !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , so she drives a little wonky anyways (love you, hon!!).

My neighbors hate my stops, too , because it prevents them from cruising on through the intersection and breaks them from their unconscious habit. From horns to middle fingers to hollered profanities, the reactions I’ve gotten from simply stopping my vehicle for about 1.5 seconds at the place that the law requires us all to has been interesting. They’re not really to blame, though; they’ve been taught by their culture, in area that they grew up in, that many traffic laws are optional. It’s interesting seeing someone pull out into an intersection, hit someone that were in the right, and then blame the other person for the accident without denying their actions.

Being a stop sign enthusiast is not for the faint of heart. It takes discipline, tenacity, an acute attention to the world around you, and commitment. Commitment to accepting that making a full stop might just add up to 4 seconds to your trip PER STOP SIGN. It means that you accept using first gear more often and not just keeping it in second while feathering the clutch. You might get honked at. You might get flicked off by someone behind you that ain’t got time for that. You might also not run over that family of four going for a walk, or hit someone and get your insurance all jacked up (at best).

Join me. Embrace the stop.

tl;dr I don’t run stop signs and you shouldn’t either.

For Sweden > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:04

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PatBateman > For Sweden 09/03/2020 at 16:06

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It’s always time for stop signs!

For Sweden > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:08

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I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:09

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I like stop signs because they give me more chances to launch my car.

PatBateman > For Sweden 09/03/2020 at 16:11

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...A stop on top?

PatBateman > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 09/03/2020 at 16:11

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Acceptable reason.  Welcome to the club.  Punch and pie in the back corner.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:13

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im a cyclist

what signs?...what lights?

one way street?...who dat?

(im much better behaved in a car...but dont own one of those for the time being)

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:14

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I'm with you. Full and complete stop. Even when turning right on a red light without a dedicated turn lane. You only yield there if you have a turn lane, dummies. And look at the fang sidewalk before you pull out. I'd have run over half a dozen families by now if I didn't do that.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:16

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https://news.stlpublicradio.org/show/st-louis-on-the-air/2016-12-13/why-do-st-louisans-ignore-stop-signs-whats-with-st-louis-author-addresses-that-quirk-and-more

Itsmemupos > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:18

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I get hassled, not only for my full stops but my irritation of those who have no idea about how to properly handle the 4-way stop. 

PatBateman > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 09/03/2020 at 16:18

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I applaud when cyclists stop at stop signs. Like, I actually roll down the window, clap my hands, and yell “thank you” to them.

I read somewhere that positive reinforcement works a lot more than negative reinforcement.  

For Sweden > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:19

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fintail > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:22

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Depends on the location and my line of sight. In the fintail especially, I’ll slow to maybe the slowest California stop levels at a truly abandoned wide open intersection, but maybe not to a 100% stop, as momentum is precious. I also have no qualms admitting I’ll proceed on red if it looks like the light is malfunctioning - on an empty street I might give it 30 seconds, then, if I know there’s no camera, see ya.   I’m probably more of a turn signal enthusiast.

Since ‘rona, an epidemic in my area seems to be running red lights - I think some witless simps had a fun time during those wonderfully quiet few weeks when traffic declined, and started living on the edge. I see stale reds ran which what seems to be record frequency these days. Stupid poorly planned U-turns and general distracted obliviousness seem to be at record levels too, although that’s probably just a continuation going on before the crisis. Lots of what I call “new drivers” here, probably just like diverse Houston - great for foodies, terrible for those who like orderly driving.

PatBateman > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available 09/03/2020 at 16:22

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There’s an intersection right off my front lawn that’s a “t”, with only the ending road having the stop sign. I had a mom in a Camry take that corner almost on two wheels while blowing the intersection completely. She lives 4 houses down from me. I nicely walked down and politely asked her to never do that again, since my children take our dog for a walk twice per day and walk cross the street there. She nodded her head in an annoying fashion while unloading her two young children from her backseat.

If ya ain’t gonna do it for the other traffic, do it for the kids.

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 16:24

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I’m sorry, but toasted ravioli?  What in the Chef Boyardee are those?

Wacko > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:25

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What you call a californien stop, us Canadians call that an American stop.

PatBateman > Itsmemupos 09/03/2020 at 16:27

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If both vehicles at perpendicular crossing roads come to a complete stop at the same time, the vehicle on the right has the right of way to cross first.

Or, if you live in my neighborhood, the person with the Porsche Cayenne  rolls through before it’s their turn, all the while sticking their nose up at the other person in the Lexus GX460.

PatBateman > Wacko 09/03/2020 at 16:29

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I’m from Texas, so the term “ American stop” wouldn’t apply to us.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:32

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Deep-fried, meat-filled, marinara on the side goodness.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:34

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lol...it does

but tbh...whilst i am quite happy to ignore signs and laws...i do tend to stop for big metal things on wheels i think i might get under if i dont stop......

i am aware im the softest squishiest thing on the road......guess that sets me apart from the worst cyclists....but im hardly a good example still

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:35

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Featured at 7:40.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/this-is-not-healthy-1844932622

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:38

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I will add: Please stop BEFORE the crosswalk. -a runner who primarily runs in the street after almost  being murdered in crosswalks too many times in the past 10-15 years

ClassicDatsunDebate > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:38

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I’ll keep my precious inertia thank you. ;)

ClassicDatsunDebate > Wacko 09/03/2020 at 16:39

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You know what they call it in France?

subexpression > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:42

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But I always heard the stop signs with a white border were only advisory, not mandatory!

thatsmr > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:47

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In a world where nobody even knows how to highway speed to merge from ramp or the zipper merge..i want to say I am a decisive driver, not defensive. I roll too fast on the freeway with cigarettes being my only distraction, rather fast in commercial areas, and within 5mph of posted in residential areas (where the stop signs are). A stop is a stop and I hate where people can't bother to stop in most likely their own neighborhood!

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 16:48

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Okay, I have had them, but they were at Gene and Georgetti’s in Chicago, and were sold as fried ravioli.

They were indeed delicious.

Also, I’m a big fan of your dry rub pork ribs.

PatBateman > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/03/2020 at 16:52

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STORY TIME

I’m a runner, too (although lately I’ve done far more F45 HIIT and weight training, but I digress), but always in the pre-dawn morning due to the fact that I live in Texas and you’ll melt if you go into the sun. Anyways, I was jogging the other day, crossing the street at a well-lit intersection, when an Accord not only blew the stop sign, but also veered at me and didn’t stop. I rolled across the hood like Bo Duke and slapped their side mirror (might have broken it).

Again, they never even stopped (or slowed down), before or after they ran me down.

Fun times.

PatBateman > ClassicDatsunDebate 09/03/2020 at 16:53

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BUT NOT YOUR PRECIOUS LOW DEDUCTIBLE.

PatBateman > subexpression 09/03/2020 at 16:53

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Just for sovereign citizens.

ttyymmnn > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:55

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My son will be getting his license soon, and he insists on stopping on the line before rolling forward to see if it’s clear. He realizes that NOBODY does that, but he also wants to make sure he doesn’t blow it for the final test. This is a great habit to get into, and I endorse it.

We live on the long side of a T intersection, and there is a stop sign on the “vertical” part of the T. Cross traffic does not stop. There’s not much traffic on my street, but practically nobody stops at the sign. It could be a Yield sign for all it’s worth. I’d love to put a speed bump there.

atfsgeoff > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:57

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I think stop signs are for idiots who don't know what YIELD means. I have seen so many yield signs lately that have been replaced by stop signs because morons don't know how to yield.

oneavejoe > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:58

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100% stop

every.damn.time.

That’s how my dad taught me, that’s how I taught my daughter.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:58

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Sounds about right.

PatBateman > thatsmr 09/03/2020 at 16:58

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On the highway, I’m rolling 5-10 above the speed limit. In neighborhoods, however, I keep it at or below the speed limit. At night, I stay south of 20 mph, but that’s more because, despite the existence of our VERY nice sidewalks, PEOPLE STILL WALK IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GOD DAMNED STREETS AND EXPECT THE DRIVERS TO ACCOMODATE THEM. This, however, is due to those cultural differences I was discussing earlier, and hopefully they get the drift that they aren’t supposed to do that after a couple of months here.

facw > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 16:58

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I applaud when cyclists stop at stop signs. Like, I actually roll down the window, clap my hands, and yell “thank you” to them. 

As a cyclist, I find it pretty annoying when people do this.

facw > ttyymmnn 09/03/2020 at 16:59

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he insists on stopping on the line before rolling forward to see if it’s clear. He realizes that NOBODY does that 

I do that! 

PatBateman > ttyymmnn 09/03/2020 at 17:01

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There have been days that I’ve been tempted to stand on the corner of that t intersection all day long and randomly cross the road when cars come up to the stop sign.  I would, too, but I’m pretty sure I’d get hit and killed doing it.

facw > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:01

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Nah, stop signs are bad. Plenty of places where they could be replaced with yields or nothing at all.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:02

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I dislike that I had to click to find out who I disagreed with :)

Like most things in life, context is everything. Therefore my views and corresponding habits are as follows:

- “Full and complete” stops are ritualistic nonsense unless there is another vehicle stopping. In which case, whoever stops first, and I mean STOPS first, goes first.

- Related to the above, it’s not a race to the stop sign. Proceed as you normally would, just finish the ritual this time. No flooring it and then locking all four in an effort to “steal” the right of way before the other car can stop.

- Full stops, 9 times out of 10, accomplish nothing that slowing to 1st-gear speeds don’t as well. The only difference from a practical standpoint is that it gives the cops a hard line for catching actual unsafe behaviour. It’s a letter of the law vs spirit of the law thing.

- For stop signs where all directions don’t stop, you should definitely be more careful. What that means, I’m open to debate on. I say slow to just before stopping, but (a) that’s largely because it’s the sweet spot for the vehicle I drive (b) much of the time traffic means you stop anyway (c) I really don’t have a problem with people who do stop completely regardless of circumstances.

- Obstructed intersections—just stop.

- And to cap it off, all-way stop signs, unless they’re in extremely obstructed intersection, should usually not exist. IMO 2-3 directions of an all-way should actually be yields. Maybe people would pay more attention if they were better tailored to the setting.

For example, there’s one I’ll freely admit to blowing every day. Quiet residential street. T-intersection.There are several scenarios possible here. We’ll start with my regular version. I come from the bottom of the T. By the time it’s time to slow down, I’m past all driveways. On my left, I’ve got a good half-kilometre clear sightlines on the intersecting street. On my right, because I’ve also got the advantage of coming downhill slightly, I have maybe half that visibility. But I’m slowing down to turn anyway, and I’m turning right. In other words, as I check for traffic, I’m looking left first, which gives me about a minute’s worth of data. if there’s nothing there, there won’t be anything there in time to bother me. And then I’m looking right to complete my turn. That means that I’m paying constant attention to a direction still with above average visibility, at a speed where I can easily stop, with no possible concerns about what’s coming up behind me. There is no reason to stop. Other possibilities for that intersection, however:

- Approaching from the bottom of the T again, but turning left. Sightlines are still good, but I don’t have quite as much cushion over people who will be coming up behind me because I can’t see as far. That means I have to allow time for a full right-left-right, which means coming to a classic rolling stop instead of blowing it altogether.

- Approaching from the left, turning right OR proceeding straight. I have good sightlines and no possibility of cross traffic. Do a classic rolling stop to allow time to look for any bikes coming out of driveways on the top of the T and go.

- Approaching from the right, turning OR proceeding straight. STOP. You can’t see very well to the left because of the hill. Just stop.

...in other words, this should be an intersection with one stop sign and two yields. And I will continue to treat it as such, barring cops.

TL;DR (S)low (T)o (O)bserve (P)olice, and like everything else in life just don’t be a moron

Wacko > ClassicDatsunDebate 09/03/2020 at 17:02

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Here in Quebec we say “un stop américain” but in France I have no idea. My best guess over there it’s just a plain stop. But they say it with a French accent. Even our stop signs here are translated, but I don’t think they are in France.

PatBateman > facw 09/03/2020 at 17:05

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Chariotoflove > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:05

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This triggers me. You know who I almost never see stop at stop signs? Cyclists. They don’t even slow down. I wish the DPD put officers at stop signs to ticket or impound the bicycles of cyclists that blow through with impunity, when they wouldn’t if they were driving. Do you know how much confusion that creates in motorists at four way stops with a bicycle there? Right of way proceedure s that should be automatic since we wer e kids go out the window.

Know what else is going on in a couple of states? “Stop-as-Yield”, which lets cyclists not stop at a stop sign unless they see someone else coming. You’d think it was already the law in Texas.

Also, I never saw such common smash ups of cars  at intersections anywhere else as I do in Texas. Not fender benders, total obliterations, because of what you talk about.

PatBateman > facw 09/03/2020 at 17:06

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PatBateman > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 17:06

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PatBateman > Chariotoflove 09/03/2020 at 17:11

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We are a great big blender of people from different upbringings, different nationalities, different cultures, as we have been since 1824. It’s fine when everyone drives the same way, because you know what to expect. But hot damn, when you have no idea who’s going to do what and when...

Every week, I see someone driving down one of the 40 mph thoroughfares in our neighborhood actually STOP at a cross intersection that THEY DON’T HAVE A STOP SIGN OR STOP LIGHT AT to try and waive someone else across. I’ve seen six accidents happen from people just doing that.

Follow the rules and regional tendencies, and errbody will make it fine.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:11

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I really should smoke some meat this weekend...

PatBateman > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 09/03/2020 at 17:13

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OOH!!  That reminds me that I have a frozen pork butt I can take out tonight, inject up tomorrow, and smoke on Saturday!!  WOOHOO!!

Chariotoflove > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:14

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People may come from many places, but local isms grow quickly. For instance, almost nobody seems to think an on ramp is for getting up to speed. Everyone merges at 35 first.

People see each other do it and start copying.

And that waving people to go ahead sucks. I know it comes from a nice place, but it’s dangerous.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:15

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There is a T junction on tiether end of my street. There didn’t use to be stop signs for the cross traffic but when they put them in everyone pretended they didn’t exist for a while. We still get a lot of people who don’t even slow down and a whole bunch of California rolls.

Once before they were put up I was turning left onto the street when a motorcyclist though he would pass me on the left. I had even started turning! And I used the indicator properly by actuating it BEFORE the turn ! I stopped of course but only because I watch my mirrors. People are idiots.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:17

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I think two other things that contribute to this problem are

1) Too many stop signs. Particularly in suburban areas they just like to throw them up any where two streets intersect, even when traffic in no way warrants a stop sign. Result being people roll through these unnecessary stop signs then do it unconsciously at real ones.

2) Much broader problem, but I think modern cars are isolated and idiot proof to a fault. Driving becomes so effortless that people minds naturally wander off to other things and overall the comfort and ease of modern cars hides the gravity of how dangerous it can be if you were to suddenly stop from hitting something.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:20

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Niiice.

DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever > ClassicDatsunDebate 09/03/2020 at 17:21

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A quarter stop with cheese?

CivicWagonEngineer > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 17:41

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I’m the same way, just use some damn sense and pay attention. It’s served me well so far in my driving life.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 17:57

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Pretty much, yeah

ClassicDatsunDebate > Wacko 09/03/2020 at 17:59

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I think it’s more noticeable in Quebec because you guys dont have right-turn-on-red.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > facw 09/03/2020 at 18:03

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I’ve never encountered that reaction, but it definitely would come off more as sarcasm than positive reinforcement.

That said, I’m kind of hard wired for “I’ll try my best not to interfere with you and I’d appreciate it if you returned the favour” so maybe that explains that attitude.

In other news, if a tree falls in the forest, it does NOT make a noise

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > facw 09/03/2020 at 18:06

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Slow To Observe Police

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > DC3 LS, Fuck Hyundai, now and forever 09/03/2020 at 18:10

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Truth. Also, something I often forget, is how good the visibility in my truck is, even though it's just a baby truck. I get into other people's vehicles and all of a sudden I'm a lot more cautious. And it's not the ride height... Mine isn't very high, and I sit as low as possible in it... It's the pillars. Too. Damn. Thick. I get it, rollover safety, but I wonder how many accidents have happened because people just couldn't see...

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > atfsgeoff 09/03/2020 at 18:14

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This is true. Stop signs are designed as an equalizer. But I object to the catering to the worst among us instead of TEACHING PEOPLE PROPERLY. Seriously. My driver's ed in-car consisted of someone who could barely speak the prevailing language talking on her phone half the time and waving vague directions. Educational value of the square root of jack. And it's totally optional... The only reason to do it is insurance discounts and the ability to get a full license 4 months sooner. Doesn't seem like a logical situation to me.

CB > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 18:50

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I stop at every stop sign. You want madness? We have yield signed intersections and uncontrolled intersections out here.

CB > Wacko 09/03/2020 at 18:52

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In the prairies, it’s apparently a Farmer Stop.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Chariotoflove 09/03/2020 at 19:41

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I always loved it when the campus cops would come out in force to hand out tickets to cyclists who ran lights and stop signs. There were a few places on campus where the scofflaws ran rampant and cops were there to put a stop to it. Made my day every time!

My habits of stopping at every sign got me uninvited to the weekly group rides, even though I made sure I was at the back of the pack and didn’t slow anyone down and I always managed to catch  up before the next sign.

TheRealBicycleBuck > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 19:44

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That happens all the freakin time here in Louisiana. When someone does the “courtesy” stop to let someone across, I immediately start blaring my horn to discourage their bad habit.

Having gone back to the office this week, I am reminded of how bad the drivers are here. No wonder the insurance rates here are among the highest in the nation.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 19:53

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All of these beliefs assume that all drivers and all vehicles are created equal. They aren’t. Throw in local conditions which change throughout the day, and you have a recipe for accidents to happen.

There’s an intersection very close to my house that was a two-way stop, but was switched to a four-way stop. Why? Overhanging trees on the street that had the right-of-way cast shadows that made it difficult to see vehicles traveling down that road. People were often speeding on that road too. It took the death of a woman and 3 kids in the car to get the state to finally turn it into a four-way stop. She pulled in front of a lumber delivery truck.

If every street were open and clear and every vehicle had plenty of lights and reflective tape and if every driver were young and completely alert and couldn’t be distracted and if every sign and signal worked perfectly every time, then maybe, just maybe, I could agree with you.

Until then, I’ll live in the real world and just stop at the sign like I’m supposed to.

Urambo Tauro > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 19:56

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I’ve been of the opinion for some time now that most stop signs might as well be yield signs. It would effectively change nothing except that a full and complete stop would no longer be necessary. The same right- of -way rules still apply, dictating who gets to go and who needs to yield. And of course sometimes yielding does absolutely mean stopping. But at least it wouldn’t be illegal to safely roll through a deserted intersection in the middle of the night.

Urambo Tauro > SPAMBot - Horse Doctor 09/03/2020 at 20:00

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Please stop BEFORE the crosswalk

THIS! The sidewalk is part of the intersection , and therefore part of the box that should n’t be blocked.

Urambo Tauro > facw 09/03/2020 at 20:04

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Makes sense. The same right-of-way rules still apply anyway. Whoever gets there first, goes first. O f course sometimes the act of yielding will sometimes require stopping, b ut at least it wouldn’t be illegal anymore to safely roll through a deserted intersection in the middle of the night when there’s nobody around .  

Urambo Tauro > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 20:17

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I stop at stop signs. Driving a GPS-tracked company vehicle gives me a reason to be a “goody two shoes” in strictly following all traffic laws to the letter, no matter how much I personally disagree with stop sign placement or the number on a speed limit sign.

I also use the opportunity to run a little experiment: If driverless cars are going to be programmed to follow the law all the time (and you know they will), then what would that look like? It’s a really fascinating experiment and one of these days I hope to find time to write a full post about it. I’ve developed a deep appreciation for why certain traffic laws are so important , while at the same time discovered some laws that desperately need changing. In many cases, it’s not the law that needs to be changed, but the layout of traffic control devices like signs and lane markings...

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/03/2020 at 21:03

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They aren’t, actually. My entire way of thinking on this is that things are usually fluid and each thing should be broken down in it’s proper context instead of just applying what is effectively a ritual. Plenty of people I’ve seen who DO come to a complete stop, and then simply lurch back into traffic without due care, somehow under the impression that stopping was the most important thing. It isn’t. You aren’t stopping for the sake of stopping, you’re stopping so you can see whether anything is about to kill you. And if conditions allow you to do that without a full stop, then there is no reason for a full stop to be completed. Again, letter of law vs spirit.

What you’ve done there is provide a specific scenario where an all-way stop is clearly warranted , just as I provided one where I believe it isn’t. Both are anecdotal, but fwiw it sounds like your intersection would fall under my definition of an obstructed view. I have no problems stopping for that.

I’m not saying never stop. I’m saying context is everything. Personally I assume everyone is a moron and getting ready to pull out in front of me, and where possible have a backup plan to what I intended to do. But after having accounted for that, I’m not going to drive by ritual. In high traffic situations, stopping is almost always a must. With nobody in sight to hurt , do whatever. I choose Slow To Observe Police. You can stop. They make effectively no difference to anybody else, because nobody’s there to affect. If every intersection was high-traffic and with obstructed vision, then maybe I could agree with you.

Until then, I’ll live in the real world and stop when it makes sense.

——————————

Also. Roundabouts . Please. Just be tter.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Urambo Tauro 09/03/2020 at 21:08

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Apparently they won't, at least in regards to speed limits. They're being programmed to drive with the flow of traffic... Though probably with an upper limit of 10 over or something.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 21:11

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I appreciate the additional context. I’ll continue to take the more conservative approach.

Our area is under a roundabout revolution. It’s going to be a while before they become really useful. Louisiana people have trouble merging and lose their minds when they have to drive around part of a donut . Remember what I wrote about people giving the courtesy stop? It happens in the roundabouts too.

smobgirl > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 21:17

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I was out for a walk and had someone try to hit me on purpose. They had a stop sign and I’d walked behind the first car at the stop so they didn’t have to wait on me. Second car made eye contact and kept driving at me, back seat passenger cackling hysterically. I slammed my fist into the drivers window so hard  I felt it flex. They just drove off.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/03/2020 at 21:24

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I’ve no problems with that. It’s what you’re comfortable doing, and frankly I feel people are (usually) better drivers when they’re comfortable. I just happen to be comfortable with the opposing view.

We’re slowly going that way here. Outside the GTA proper there are a fair number of them, and as people become comfortable with them they’re slowly bringing them closer and closer in. Wish they’d hurry up, but it’s better than nothing.

And courtesy has very little place in driving IMO. Just take what’s yours (and no more) and get out of the way. Being kind generally only confuses th ose in front and frustrates those behind.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 21:29

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I mostly agree with you regarding courtesy. It’s a great way to cause wrecks and generally snarls traffic. Merge lanes are one place I do make an exception - get to my speed and I’ll let you into the lane. 

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/03/2020 at 21:57

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With you there.

Urambo Tauro > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 21:59

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Programmed to always speed automatically in response to other cars tailgating and/or overtaking? ... Or in a way that requires some form of human verification (presumably for liability purposes)?

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Urambo Tauro 09/03/2020 at 22:08

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Not sure. It's been a while since I read about it... Autonomous vehicles don't really interest me

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/03/2020 at 22:09

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People argue vociferously that it’s a terrible onus to have to lose all their momentum and then have to get up to speed again...while wearing their Team Ineos jerseys riding their Pinarellos. You should read the articles.

I’m glad to say our team rides in college rigorously followed all road laws and applied regular courtesy. We realized that building good will was one of the most important things we could do.

Wacko > ClassicDatsunDebate 09/03/2020 at 22:09

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It’s been a few years that we can turn right on red, except for Montreal for some reason. 

Chariotoflove > TheRealBicycleBuck 09/03/2020 at 22:09

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Gyrocopters.

Urambo Tauro > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 09/03/2020 at 22:25

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I don’t think they’ll ever come to fruition the way we see in the movies, but watching these tech companies try anyway is amusing. ...And fascinating, when you think about how they’re trying to make a car that drives “perfectly”. The kind of thought that goes into programming these things is a lot like the decisions we have to make every time we drive. Yellow light! Do I have enough room to stop safely before it turns red? Where do I want the car to end up so I’m not blocking the crosswalk? What kind of b rake pressure (not too much, n or too little) will it take to land in my target zone?  

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Urambo Tauro 09/03/2020 at 22:43

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I don’t see it ever working reliably without total infrastructure upgrades, but the tech they develop on the way to (imo) almost certain failure will no doubt have some interesting uses. Or perhaps terrifying , from a privacy standpoint.

zipfuel > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 23:24

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I don’t disagree with you: stop at the stop signs, however the sleep-driving malaise conditions you describe exist because there are too many damn stop signs.

I live in NA now but gr ew up in the UK. The vast majority of intersections there have yield or “give way” signs. Here’s an example.

Intersection of a through road going north south viewed from the residential streets that cross it.

You slow down to the sign, drop into second gear, look all ways, if there’s any traffic you stop, otherwise pop out the clutch and proceed.

The vast majority of intersections can be handled this way perfectly safely - its the default . The ones that can’t (eg obstructed views) have stop signs and you’d better believe everyone stops at those cos that big red sign means shit is serious.

Roundabouts are also magic but that’s another essay.

Just Jeepin' > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 23:37

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I have become a roundabout enthusiast, and now actively avoid stop signs when I know there’s a similar route with roundabouts.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > PatBateman 09/03/2020 at 23:46

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Fudge dude!! I hope you are alright and  at least broke their mirror. JFC, didn’t even stop. Would be rewarding to track them down and show up with a few police. Pretty sure hit and run is a felony everywhere. The lack of personal responsibility/accountability   among the general population is tragic.

SPAMBot - Horse Doctor > Urambo Tauro 09/03/2020 at 23:49

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Yet people fly thru all the time at a high rate of speed while their back tires stop after the first line. It was way, way worse when I lived in TN, but it's getting worse here. It's not like they slow down in advance then creep thru, it's high speed then hard brake to stop just before they are in traffic. I've recently changed my normal running routes (in part to avoid crowds), and I'm a much more sane person now that I deal with fewer intersections 

Jb boin > Wacko 09/04/2020 at 00:21

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We call it “un stop glissé” (a slipped stop) and it’s forbidden and you have the same sanction if you get caught as if you didn’t stop at all : at least a 135€ fine and 4 points lost on the license (that has 12 at most).

It’s the same sanction as running a red or driving the wrong way or a  right-of-way violation .

Forrest > PatBateman 09/04/2020 at 02:34

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I stop completely every time. I am sometimes the only one in a long line of cars who stops completely. I occasionally get some dirty looks, but after driving like this for hundreds of thousands of miles, I have never been rear ended at a stop sign. (Of course, one person's experience is probably not statistically significant.)

MKULTRA1982(ConCrustyBrick) > thatsmr 09/04/2020 at 10:50

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This is an excellent explanation of my driving. Yes I will hit mach 1 trying to pass people, and I get frustrated when I can’t exceed the speed limit outside of parking lots and residential areas. I giggle at loss of traction.

But I’ll eat my steering wheel before I make a conscious decision not to stop at stop signs (except in parking lots where they are not legally binding and there is visibility for 500m+ in each direction